Topic: SobiSEF plugin and 3rd Party Joomla! SEF Extensions (AceSEF, sh404SEF, etc)

[aboututila]

The following summarizes a Personal Message discussion between myself and Belaire Technologies.

My experience is in use of the SobiSEF plugin.
I have no (or extremely limited experience) in using 3rd Party Joomla! SEF Extensions/Components, (such as sh404SEF, ARTIO JoomSEF, AceSEF, etc).
Belaire Technologies has experience in using 3rd Party Joomla! SEF Extensions/Components.

The following is the result of our combined advice regarding the use of the SobiSEF plugin and 3rd Party Joomla! SEF Extensions/Components (AceSEF, ARTIO JoomSEF, sh404SEF, etc)

(1) Many 3rd party Joomla! SEF Extensions/Components do not work well with the SobiSEF plugin.
     To work with the SobiSEF plugin they must support Joomla! 1.5 router.php files.
     The SobiSEF plugin is a Joomla! 1.5 Component Router and has its own router.php for the SOBI2 Component
     (MyJoomlaInstallation/components/com_sobi2/router.php).
     If the authors of other 3rd party Joomla! Components included a Joomla 1.5 SEF Component Router (router.php) for their Components,
     then there would be no need for 3rd party Joomla! SEF Components.

     ARTIO JoomSEF 3 Note: It has been reported by norfolkandway that ARTIO JoomSEF v3.6.2 and the ARTIO JoomSEF 3 plugin for SOBI2 are compatible with the SOBI2 SobiSEF Plugin. If you are using the SOBI2 SobiSEF plugin with ARTIO JoomSEF, you need to set the ARTIO JoomSEF 3 plugin for SOBI2 to 'joomla router' handling and enable the SOBI2 SobiSEF plugin.

(2) SOBI2 Administrators need to decide either;

(a) To use Joomla! native SEF for Joomla! (standard installation package) Components
     and the SobiSEF plugin for the SOBI2 Component
     and NOT other 3rd Party Joomla! SEF Components.

      This option is recommended for Sites with content that is mostly generated by
      Joomla! (standard installation package) components
      and the SOBI2 Component,
      because;
      (i) SEF URL's only needed for Joomla! Native Component(s) (ie: Joomla! Articles)
           and SOBI2 Component,
      (ii) least expensive option,
      (iii) minimal 'technically knowledge' of SEF URL creation needed,
      (iv) only requires version compatibility between;
            Joomla!, SOBI2 Component, and SOBI2 plugins.

or

(b) To use a 3rd party Joomla! SEF Component
     (Belaire Technologies recommends AceSEF)
     (refer AceSEF's comparison of popular 3rd party Joomla! SEF Components/Extensions)
     that has plugins for the SOBI2 Component,
     and other 3rd party Components being used,
     and NOT use the SobiSEF plugin.

      This option is recommended for Sites with content that is generated by
      Joomla! (standard installation package) components,
      the SOBI2 Component,
      and significant content generated by other third party Components,
      because;
      (i) SEF URL creation needed for third party Components other than SOBI2,
      (ii) some Joomla! SEF Components and their plugins are commercial (they cost money),
      (iii) 'technical knowledge' of SEF URL creation is often needed,
      (iv) requires version compatibility between;
            Joomla!, SOBI2, third party Components,
            the 3rd party Joomla! SEF Component and its associated third party Component plugins.

I hope this helps - Mark

[Trinity]

Hi Mark,

thank you for your explanations 
I just want to add the following, because it sounds a little bit as if SobiSEF is bad because it does not work with 3rd party SEF components:

The idea of Joomla 1.5 developers was, that no 3rd party SEF components are needed in the future. Therefore they implemented (a better than in Joomla 1.0) SEF in Joomla 1.5 and gave the component developers the possibility to write a native SEF router for their component.

Sobi2 (SobiSEF) uses this Joomla 1.5 mechanism.

It is not intended to use a native SEF router together with other SEF components.

But unfortunately the most of the Joomla 1.5 component developers DON'T write native Joomla 1.5 SEF routers for their components.
Therefore the users still need 3rd party SEF components.

Because, at the time we wrote our router, SH404 was the most used SEF component for Joomla and Sobi2, we built an exception into SobiSEF: If SobiSEF detects on installation an installed SH404 component, it integrates in it and uses this component for storage but with its own SEF URL creating routines (which are better than the standard SH404 creation routines for Sobi2).
This does work ONLY with SH404.

If someone uses another 3rd party SEF component, it is not intended to use SobiSEF!

Trinity

[tekknokrat]

Hi,

from my experience SobiSEF works fine as long as used standalone and not in conjunction with other SEF extensions like Trinity stated. The trouble begins when Joomfish is added to installation. Then Sobi2SEF plugin will not work correctly. As developer always state that Joomfish is not supported, all Joomfish users are left alone and have to move to other SEF extensions.

I don't want go into discussion with that but that is the current state. The solution we use is current sh404 which now comes with its own SOBI2 sef/meta plugins.

Best,
Gunnar

[aboututila]

Trinity,

And thank you for your explanations.

because it sounds a little bit as if SobiSEF is bad because it does not work with 3rd party SEF components

It was not my intention to imply that the SobiSEF plugin was 'bad' or faulty or inadequate or somehow lacking in capabilities.

I have now modified my statement in the previous posting to state;

(1) The SobiSEF plugin does not seem to work well with other 3rd party Joomla! SEF Extensions/Components,
     or arguably it more accurate to say that 3rd party Joomla! SEF Extensions/Components do not work well with the SobiSEF plugin.
     (This is understandable since, in the case of SOBI2, multiple components and plugins are trying to re-write the same URL's)

Since the native Joomla 1.5 SEF router (JRouter Class) and how it is intended to 'fit in to' the Joomla! Architecture has always been a bit of a mystery to me (as there is minimal 'official' Joomla! Documentation - see http://docs.joomla.org/Framework:Router_part1 for example) I was unable to clearly explain why getting the SobiSEF plugin and other 3rd party Joomla! SEF Components can be problem.

As tekknokrat also points out getting the SobiSEF plugin to work with any 3rd party Joomla! Components that modify 'standard' SOBI2 internal URL's - such as Joom!fish - is also a problem.

I agree and support your statement that this is not the fault of the SobiSEF plugin or SOBI2 as such, but more a consequence of the Joomla! Architecture and the fact that 3rd party Joomla 1.5 Component developers do not write native Joomla 1.5 SEF routers for their own Components.

With regard to sh404SEF.
sh404SEF seems to have it's own problems - for example - see http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions/site-management/sef/10134

at the time we wrote our [SobiSEF plugin native Joomla 1.5 SEF] router, SH404 was the most used SEF component for Joomla and Sobi2, we built an exception into SobiSEF: If SobiSEF detects on installation an installed SH404 component, it integrates in it and uses this component for storage but with its own SEF URL creating routines (which are better than the standard SH404 creation routines for Sobi2).
This does work ONLY with SH404.

It would seem that recent versions of sh404SEF no longer work well with the SobiSEF plugin - see How to get sh404SEF working with SobiSEF. Again this is not the fault of the SobiSEF plugin, but as a result of changes/updates to the sh404SEF Component.

In summary, is it correct that you agree with the statement;

"If you are using a 3rd party Joomla! SEF Component
or a 3rd party Joomla! Component that modifies SOBI2 URL's (such as Joom!fish)
then you are not advised to use the SobiSEF plugin."

Regards - Mark

[aboututila]

Trinity,

As an afterthought, and to avoid Forum User confusion,
may I suggest that the OpenSEF/SobiSEF Plugin Forum be split into two forums,
(1) for the SobiSEF plugin, and
(2) for the OpenSEF plugin.

I suspect the OpenSEF plugin Forum will not see much activity since OpenSEF is arguably a discontinued Component and not Joomla! 1.5.x native.
Regardless having two forums could reduce Forum User confusion.

Regards - Mark

[Trinity]

Hi Mark,

"If you are using a 3rd party Joomla! SEF Component
or a 3rd   party Joomla! Component that modifies SOBI2 URL's (such as Joom!fish)
then   you are not advised to use the SobiSEF plugin."

In principle this is correct, but..
- For Joomfish there is a sticky post with modifications.
- If the SEF component has the functionality to use the Joomla router for a specific component instead of the SEF component (I think Artio has this), SobiSEF can still be used for Sobi2.

I don't want to create an extra board for a "dead" plugin. Perhaps it is sufficient to rename the board to "SobiSEF Plugin" or better "SEF/SEO". I will think about that 

Trinity

[aboututila]

Trinity,

Understood.

It is difficult to advise/support Users, since;
(1) The sh404SEF Component was compatible with the SobiSEF plugin at some stage, but latest versions of sh404SEF are not.
It would appear that nobody is sure which versions of sh404SEF are compatible with the SobiSEF plugin and which versions are not.

(2) The OpenSEF Component is a discontinued product and is only Joomla! 1.0.x compatible.
The SOBI2 OpenSEF plugin is compatible with OpenSEF for Joomla! 1.0.x and SOBI2 for Joomla! 1.0.x
The OpenSEF Component is unlikely to be compatible with the SobiSEF plugin, since the SobiSEF Plugin requires Joomla! 1.5.x.

(3) The ARTIO JoomSEF Component may be compatible with the SobiSEF plugin, but it is not clear which versions of ARTIO JoomSEF 3.x are compatible with the SobiSEF plugin.
The JoomSEF 3 SOBI2 Extension is needed if the SOBI2 SobiSEF plugin is NOT used.
If you are using the SOBI2 SobiSEF plugin with the the JoomSEF SOBI2 3 Extension, then you need to set the JoomSEF SOBI2 3 Extension to 'joomla router' handling and enable the SOBI2 SobiSEF plugin.
[The SOBI2 SobiSEF plugin is essentially a Joomla! 1.5 router.php file for the SOBI2 Component].
It is also unclear, that even if ARTIO JoomSEF 3.x is compatible with the SobiSEF plugin, that it will continue to be compatible with future ARTIO JoomSEF 3.x updates.

I don't want to create an extra board for a "dead" plugin. Perhaps it is sufficient to rename the board to "SobiSEF Plugin" or better "SEF/SEO". I will think about that

Understood

Regards - Mark

[Trinity]

Hi Mark,

1. Agree. As we (Neo and I) don't know the paid version of SH404 all statements in How to get sh404SEF working with SobiSEF and all code functions in SobiSEF regarding SH404 are valid only for the last free SH404 version.

2. Yes, OpenSEF and OpenSEF plugin are ONLY for Joomla 1.0. SobiSEF plugin is ONLY for Joomla 1.5. This is stated clearly on the download pages.

3. I don't know which Artio version has the possibility to use the native router for a component.
If SobiSEF is used with Artio, NO Artio Sobi2 extension is needed. A SEF component extension for another component is needed only if the SEF component itself created the FURLs. If SobiSEF creates these FURLs no other extensions for creating SEF URLs for Sobi2 are needed.

How a SEF component basically works (variations possible):
A SEF component (like Artio, SH404,...) is able only to create FURLs for Joomla content and other Joomla integrated components (the same as native Joomla 1.5 SEF functionality already does).
Normally no SEF component knows by default how to create FURLs for a 3rd party component like Sobi2.
Therefore the SEF components need so called extension files for each component for which they should also create FURLs.
A SEF component "switches off" the Joomla native SEF functionality. It is not longer used.
A native SEF router file for a 3rd party component has the same functionality as a SEF component with the corresponding extension file (because it uses the Joomla 1.5 SEF functionality).

This means, SobiSEF is responsible for creating FURLs for Sobi2. An additionally installed SEF component don't need an extension file for Sobi2 (works only if the SEF component "releases" Sobi2 to be used with a native router file).

The only reason for still using SEF components is, that not all components have native SEF router files.
If you use only Joomla 1.5 and Sobi2, no SEF component is needed to get full SEF functionality for the site.

Trinity

 

[aboututila]

Trinty,

Understood and thank you.
Your explanations will help me to provide better support/explanations to SobiSEF plugin users.
I am also updating some of my other SobiSEF documentation/postings to hopefully provide clearer explanations to SOBI2 Forum Users.

Regards - Mark